Our argument hinged entirely on semantics and in that case a compromise must be brokered or neither party will ever get anywhere.
I will, then, offer up this assertion - if you must insist that Jesus felt courage (and I still maintain that He did not, because I do not think He felt fear) then you must agree that His was a brand of courage that you or I...or any other human...could ever feel. While our small English language can only come up with the word "courage" to describe what He did for us on the cross you must admit that the definition of "courage" is a very incomplete one indeed....
What He was able to accomplish was other-worldly and ultimately indescribable beyond just calling it Grace.
I disagree that Jesus did not feel fear and/or courage. In Gethsemane he was praying for God to "take this cup from me". I would take that to mean he was not feeling very excited about being killed. Also, Jesus had many other emotions. He cried for Mary and Martha when Lazarus died. If you can feel grief, or joy (which he also did many times) then it stands to reason that he also felt fear and courage.
Ok now onto my actual reason for posting. Rebekah, why do you only write one word posts? Not to mention "mmhm" isnt even a word!
lol sorry sarah, ill try to make them a little more informative!!! & thank u 4 agreeing with me!!! Job & i had quite a long "discussion" about this on Friday night & pretty much everyone else @ the cafe agreed with me (although they didn't all want 2 come right out & say so).
ok Job, i totally agree with u when u said it was a lot more than just courage, & he definitely had a much better kind of courage than we as humans will ever b able 2 obtain. But i think that maybe u just don't agree with me on the definition of courage. When i say that someone had courage i mean that he/she did something that they knew was not going 2 b fun, & could cause them some form of pain, discomfort or loss, but they did it any way b/c they knew it was the right thing 2 do!
Yes so there is my little comment. It's interesting that my comments r longer than my posts! oh well i'll work on that!!
Excellent point(s), Sarah, but as I told Bekah I think Jesus's agony in the garden is because He didn't feel like His ministry was done.
That point is supported throughout Scripture and is congruous with Christ's character while fear and worry are not.
We assign courage to what He did out of our own incompetence to correctly articulate and/or understand what He did.
While Jesus did feel a broad range of emotions he did not feel, I am sure, many others: lust, greed, vengeful passion...and as I maintain - fear.
In the Garden Jesus knew he'd be leaving his disciples, all of them, to martyrdom - a Church to unsure leadership and his own ethnicity to a very thorough rejection of Him.
He was tore up from the floor up emotionally...showing the greatest emotion of His 33 years because He was afraid to die? I think not...
And Bekah...12 tribes guy agreed with you maybe...
hmm i really get the feeling that this debate is going nowhere really fast, b/c u already made all those points on friday night and i already gave u a response to all of them!! So yes i think i'm going to officially end this debate, b/c we are never going to agree!!! There you go debate officially over you know i'm right : ) !!!!!! lol well ok deep down in side u know i'm right!!!!!
Im sorry, I just have one more comment to add because this is bothering me! Obviously, Jesus did not feel greed, lust, revenge, etc, because while he was human he was not sinful. So he did not have sinful thoughts. But he was STILL human, meaning that he felt other emotions. Fear and courage are not sinful emotions and this being said it stands to reason that he would feel them. Ok now thats all I have to say and as far as Im concerned I WIN! -Sarah
Ultimately, I think you're misunderstanding how when I get into a debate, I always win. Really, its true, you just dont know it yet. Ask Rebekah. Im always right!
wow, ok Job you've never even met my sister. Do you need to attend an anger management program?!?!?!?! Or is this just b/c you lost the debate and it's too much for you?!? lol hey sarah look at how many comments i get when i write a one word post verses a long one (yes most of the comments had nothing to do with my one word post but that's not the point) I think the one word ones are much more interesting and the take a lot less time to write!!!!!! I might have to fall back into my old habits!!!!!
19 comments:
yeh whats that all about?
don't sound so excited ;-)
Okay Bekah, here's what I've concluded:
Our argument hinged entirely on semantics and in that case a compromise must be brokered or neither party will ever get anywhere.
I will, then, offer up this assertion - if you must insist that Jesus felt courage (and I still maintain that He did not, because I do not think He felt fear) then you must agree that His was a brand of courage that you or I...or any other human...could ever feel.
While our small English language can only come up with the word "courage" to describe what He did for us on the cross you must admit that the definition of "courage" is a very incomplete one indeed....
What He was able to accomplish was other-worldly and ultimately indescribable beyond just calling it Grace.
No?
NOT a brand of courage we could ever feel...oops
I disagree that Jesus did not feel fear and/or courage. In Gethsemane he was praying for God to "take this cup from me". I would take that to mean he was not feeling very excited about being killed. Also, Jesus had many other emotions. He cried for Mary and Martha when Lazarus died. If you can feel grief, or joy (which he also did many times) then it stands to reason that he also felt fear and courage.
Ok now onto my actual reason for posting. Rebekah, why do you only write one word posts? Not to mention "mmhm" isnt even a word!
Love, Sarah
lol sorry sarah, ill try to make them a little more informative!!!
& thank u 4 agreeing with me!!! Job & i had quite a long
"discussion" about this on Friday night & pretty much everyone else @ the cafe agreed with me (although they didn't all want 2 come right out & say so).
ok Job, i totally agree with u when u said it was a lot more than just courage, & he definitely had a much better kind of courage than we as humans will ever b able 2 obtain. But i think that maybe u just don't agree with me on the definition of courage. When i say that someone had courage i mean that he/she did something that they knew was not going 2 b fun, & could cause them some form of pain, discomfort or loss, but they did it any way b/c they knew it was the right thing 2 do!
Yes so there is my little comment. It's interesting that my comments r longer than my posts! oh well i'll work on that!!
Excellent point(s), Sarah, but as I told Bekah I think Jesus's agony in the garden is because He didn't feel like His ministry was done.
That point is supported throughout Scripture and is congruous with Christ's character while fear and worry are not.
We assign courage to what He did out of our own incompetence to correctly articulate and/or understand what He did.
While Jesus did feel a broad range of emotions he did not feel, I am sure, many others: lust, greed, vengeful passion...and as I maintain - fear.
In the Garden Jesus knew he'd be leaving his disciples, all of them, to martyrdom - a Church to unsure leadership and his own ethnicity to a very thorough rejection of Him.
He was tore up from the floor up emotionally...showing the greatest emotion of His 33 years because He was afraid to die? I think not...
And Bekah...12 tribes guy agreed with you maybe...
hmm i really get the feeling that this debate is going nowhere really fast, b/c u already made all those points on friday night and i already gave u a response to all of them!! So yes i think i'm going to officially end this debate, b/c we are never going to agree!!! There you go debate officially over you know i'm right : ) !!!!!! lol well ok deep down in side u know i'm right!!!!!
But you just quit the debate...
where I come from that means I win.
Deep down inside.
I win.
Im sorry, I just have one more comment to add because this is bothering me! Obviously, Jesus did not feel greed, lust, revenge, etc, because while he was human he was not sinful. So he did not have sinful thoughts. But he was STILL human, meaning that he felt other emotions. Fear and courage are not sinful emotions and this being said it stands to reason that he would feel them. Ok now thats all I have to say and as far as Im concerned I WIN!
-Sarah
Haha...excellent Sarah. But would you say that Jesus felt sexual desire at all?
That, in and of itself, is not sinful.
Apples and oranges, I know, but it leads to several questions.
Ultimately, I think you're misunderstanding the passage about Him in the garden.
You like it when I win.
Ultimately, I think you're misunderstanding how when I get into a debate, I always win. Really, its true, you just dont know it yet. Ask Rebekah. Im always right!
I've heard they can cure your condition at birth now...
I win
I hear you have a condition that can never be cured. Sucks for you! haha :)
Yeah, it's called "genius" babe...
Have fun voting for Hillary.
Im insulted. Horribly.
If Hillary becomes president I'm moving to Canada thank you.
You really will??
Well then go Hillary '08!!
wow, ok Job you've never even met my sister. Do you need to attend an anger management program?!?!?!?! Or is this just b/c you lost the debate and it's too much for you?!?
lol hey sarah look at how many comments i get when i write a one word post verses a long one (yes most of the comments had nothing to do with my one word post but that's not the point) I think the one word ones are much more interesting and the take a lot less time to write!!!!!! I might have to fall back into my old habits!!!!!
oh wow... that's really all I can say is oh wow.....
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